Combines I was in Hesston last weekend and this is what I saw

[T__langan]

What don't you like about Massey combinesIJ Yes, they had problems back in the day, but the early N's were problematic too. Almost everything I've read about these later model Masseys by guys who own them is positive.

 

[Illinois_Gleaner]

T langan, That is not really the point of what I was saying. Maybe this will better describe how I feel Agco is doing to the loyal Allis and Gleaner guys. If Joe Blow comes in and takes your wife away from you.(which is what Agco is doing,just wait and see) are you going to go buddy up with the guy that just stole your wifeIJIJIJIJ I dont think so. You will probably steer clear of that situation. What I am saying is if Agco wont make me a Class 8 combine to replace my R75,other then a painted Massey.Why would I buy from the guy that drove me out of my Natural Flow Gleaner. IG

 

[MostlyGreen]

IG In addition to your original concern, there is also a problem with the "Non-Gleaner" Massey dealers, who have ONlY the axial combines to sell. The nearby competing Gleaner dealer can sell either rotary line, unlike the Massey dealer, though this is becoming less of an issue as AGCO continues to harmonize the various brands under single dealerships. I believe CNH has "done it right" by offering 2 distinct product lines under 2 seperate dealer networks.

 

[Illinois_Gleaner]

Exactally right. If you are going to offer the red one to the grey dealer. Why not paint the grey one red and offer it to the Red dealer. Agco is so set in turning everything they have Massey and Challenger that they are loosing there loyal customers. If I wanted a Massey combine dont you think I would already be driving oneIJ IG

 

[orange]

IG Absolutely right, Gleaner completely outsells the other 2 and it appears that Mr. Richenhagen is the root of the problem. It appears that he is unconcerned about the North American market where if AGCO is to be successful, it is clearly about the Orange_Silver. That is not to say Massey_Challenger cannot coexist, but they will not stand on their own, and AGCO tractor_Gleaner will. As a side note, a major northern plains CAT dealer has decided to not promote the Challenger combine in lieu of focusing completely on the lexion. Mr. Richenhagen needs a seminar from Robert Ratliff on what brought this company to life, and it wasn't Massey or Challenger. I know a number of GOOD dealers that are raising concerns about Mr. R's tactics. Recently, Mr. R was on CNBC and a wall street conference call where he referred to AGCO as having 4 important brands: Fendt, Valtra, Massey Ferguson and Challenger. Apparently in Mr. R's world, AGCO Tractor_Gleaner don't exist. With this thought train, AGCO will not exist in North America. Please write to him at: AGCO Corporation 4205 River Green Parkway Duluth GA 30096 Explain to him that in North America AGCO Tractor_Gleaner is the MOST important brand.

 

[Red_Painter]

In the early 90's before Agco bought the MF, gleaner was around 10 to 1 marketing shares over Massey according to an article in Farm Journal, Though both were devastated by losing dealers, MF by far lost the most large combine dealers due to such little product to sell. Claas combines were unwanted by most buyers and more dealers survived in Canada it seems. MF has made some gains and I think Gleaner perhaps has lost some share due to green rotories and multiple franchise dealers going with another single brand among other reasons. Is Agco trying to put the accelerator rolls in the MF style rotaryIJ If so I can see them trying to retire the natural flow in the future as well as putting the brand under the MF name unless they get enough kickback from dealers_farmers to at least put it off. I'm afraid it eventually will happen as farms become even bigger.

 

[T__langan]

I agree that the Natural Flow design is superior to an axial. However, width limits the Gleaner to further capacity increases that apparently are being demanded of manufacturers. Yes, the 75 can be tweaked and Hyperized to get some more capacity, but perhaps not enough for the long term capacity increases that will be needed. I'd rather see Gleaner go to an axial design now that can be improved upon and larger models made, than to see AGCO keep trying to squeeze more capacity out of the Natural Flow in the short term, and then have to play catch-up to other brands when the limit is hit and larger machines are needed. We all like to make fun of JD not introducing a rotor for 30 years after everyone else. I'd prefer AGCO didn't take that road. That being said, AGCO already has the expandable axial Massey design under their ownership. So far, they are proving to be reliable, simple, and high capacity. Yes, I'd like to see Gleaner's cleaning system applied to the Massey design - and maybe they are working on that. I don't think AGCO will pull the plug on the NAtural Flow until demand for class 6 and 7 combines winds down. Illinois Gleaner - The way I'm looking at the situation, AGCO might be looking to take my current wife away in the future and provide me with another wife. She may not look the same and might not have some qualities I liked about my former wife, but maybe the new wife has some qualities the old one didn't have. I guess I would be somewhat happy my new wife is the same color as the old one - and not some riff-raff green wife. lOl!! We all have to remember that we've been down this road before. Deutz Allis quit producing conventionals around '87. I'm sure a lot of people were concerned about that - I know we were. But, once we got used to our new wife and how to get her to please us (which, BTW, is the opposite in a lot of ways than our old wives!),we became quit happy and hardly miss the old wives at all anymore!

 

[RJT]

Have you guys forgot what happened the last time a German took control of Allis ChalmersIJ (the Duetz deal). Could be they just don't think like the rest of us. Hmm grin

 

[MostlyGreen]

I think a better "course of action" would have been for AGCO to only offer the A85_9895 to both the Gleaner and Massey dealers, in order to fulfill the Class 8 product shortfall. let Gleaner dealers continue to promote the R65_R75's and Massey continue with 9690_9790's.

 

[oldstruck]

I'll toss a couple cents in this if I may, mostly for just something to consider. 1. As for rotors, John Deere came up with the Twin Rotor (New Holland) way back in the late 60's. Their marketing department killed it, due to they felt they could not sell it to their customers. (it was too "unconventional", thought it would scare their customer base off to other companies) They sold the design to Sperry New Holland, thus the TR-70 appeared. John Deere till a few years ago, poopooed Rotories. The market forced them to produce them. I assume AGCO sees that the smaller machines like the class 5 and 6 will go by the way side as has the 4 has done. I personally dont see the point of having the same machine in 3 different colors. The same logic GM uses ( 5 divisions that each sell their own version of a BlazerIJ) spreads the cost of parts out over a larger consumer base. See what GM has done to itself the last several years. At $300,000 I cant see many dealers selling even 1 or 2 of these class 8 machines in a year. Will one of the colors be orphaned in a few years, I would be a bit leary of themIJ At least with R's there are spares out there! One thing to note on this, the Security and Exchange Commission says a manufacture has to produce replacement parts for an item only up to 7 years after it is stopped building the product. Bankruptcy and reorganization afterwhich are exempt. 2. How big do we think we can goIJ In it's day the G was a large machine, park one beside an A85, now the G looks like a tire chock compared to the A85! (note: was there not a rumor in 1987-8 that there was one or two R8's prototypes built, running in wheatIJ) Is the machine size limited to the size of an operation, or the roads the machine has to be transported or moved onIJ If the limit is by the operation and not transportation, we could someday see machines twice the physical size of what we see today. Then the question becomes, if it is that big, will it really do a better job of getting all the grain and having a clean grain sampleIJ Or do those customers careIJ Plus keeping the grain away from it! Imagine the size of the grain carts then! As for the Deutz eraIJ Allis got themselves in financial trouble and Deutz saw an opertunity to get in the North American market with a dealership network that was pretty much intact and they took advantage of it. And we saw what happened with that!