Combines another notill question

[pbutler]

Red, I have wondered the same thing. I don't thing-I have never seen any studies on it, I would like to. Maybe it hasn't been around long enough. Depending on what you grow I am guessing 10-15 years would get you about 3-5" of high organic soil. So if you were plowing with 15" bottoms would take 2 cycles to get it throughout your profileIJ I am about 40 now-maybe if I start that trial I can get you some results when I am about 75 or 85. If you ever hear of someone who has done that I am sure some of the no-till pubs would be interested in the results. Paul

 

[Red]

When i asked my soil science professor about this she basically denounced me as a heretic and gave me a D in the course. i'm sure she would say it was because i didn't apply myself and showed up late a little to much but i think it was because i didn't bite on notill hook line and sinker like she thought i should. She basically thought if you didn't notill your farm was doomed to falure it didn't matter what else you were doing right. but back to the topic. yes you might go a bit backwards and it would be like starting over. but you have only disturb the soil once and then go back to notill and start enriching the soil with organic matter again. it might improve earth worm populations as well because they may not have to travel to the surface to eat the residue and risk the birds and getting dried out. it seems to me that they would also deposit more of their castings in the root zone as well. so now i need to start notilling and plowing every decade and in about forty years i aughta be able to say something. i'll need a control feild as well. can you bury weed seeds with a plowto where they won't come up because if you could that could help slow herbicide resistance wouldn't it what do you think take care Red

 

[ham]

Sorry to ask a dumb question, but can define what you mean by "undercut" IJ I've not heard the term in this context. Thanks Ham in Australia

 

[pbutler]

40 Years-control field and no-till. Sounds like a tough one. You need to put same fertility on both I would guess.... I can see how long term studies would be awfuly tough. Especially given factors like no-till performs better in dry years and less in ideal conditions. Maybe you need about 3 sets of fields and controls-and stagger them out to start a new set every 3 years. Sorry, I just made your trial now 49 years. Not having more than about 20-30 years left to farm myself I think I will have to go with the bottom line for now...but you do have me thinking about a small 8 row test strip up the middle in a couple years.....use the house as a marker or something so it won't get "lost".

 

[dakota]

Interesting discussion ... Has any of you read the book "Stubble over the Soil" by Carlos CrovettoIJ I would call him the father of notill. He started it back in the 50s in South America and has given many speeches here in the U.S. His book would probably answer a lot of your questions.

 

[Red]

An undercutter is also called a blade plow. What it is, is a blade five or six feet wide some of the old ones were seven feet usually at a ninety degree angle, although some manufactures had 100 degree blades. the blades on the more modern impliments are in gangs of five seven and nine. single double and triple bades were made but not any more that i know of there wer some six and four bladers made but they didn't seem to stay in the ground as well. we run a 5ftX5 and a 6ftX7 on our farm about 3 inches deep do you have anything like that in AustraliaIJ i think undercutting is a western high plains term because i have freinds east of here who had never heard of undercutting but blade plowed all the time. take care Red

 

[Ham]

Thanks I am familiar with a blade plow. We messed with those and rod weeders during the 80's some, but they never became a major force, and have largely fallen into disuse as far as I know. Although i did see a wanted advertisement recently looking for a blade plow. It is possible they are strong in other areas of Australia that I am unaware of, but I hear very little about them anymore. Ham

 

[Downunder_7720]

Familiar with blade plows in the Wimmera of Victoria too. They worked well IF everything was either very dry or very wet! Anywhere in between our Wimmera grey soils are sticky and the blades just ride up out of the soil. Work O.K in light Mallee soil which can be more sandy.