Combines Effect of going to a larger cross flow cylinder and cage

Rooster

Guest
That was probably my post. It's called physics and you need to understand the relationship between power and Fc = mv^2_r, the formula for centrifugal force or "separation force" as it applies to combines. Power will continue to be your biggest issue in going up in size from the current diameter fo the rotor and cage. When increaseing rotor or cylinder diameter, the horsepower requirements don't increase gradually proportional to the increase in diameter, they increase at exponentially. The best example to describe the changes in horsepower when going larger in diameter on a cylinder and rotor is to think of it just like Compounding Interest on your money vs. simple interest, where compounding interest increases the value of your money at an increasing rate (where the interest earned each period is added to the principal of the next period: 6% + 6.12% + 6.27% + 6.31%..., etc.). Whereas with Simple Interest, increases occurr at a fixed rate (say 6%) annaully. The same applies to most other horsepower critical systems_features on a combine. Once you figure that out those powerchips that we think are doing us so much good aren't really doing much good at all. The only garantee with a power chip is, it supplies you with some really useless power proportional to the demands of the combine and will cause an excess use of fuel in tougher conditions. Only one or two features (non-lugging features) on a combine are going to value from the increase of horsepower as provided by a power chip, because the power chip doesn't add displacement or torque.
 

hunter

Guest
Where you example falls down is that a 30" cyl. at 1000 rpms and a 40" cyl.. at 750 rpms. produce the same hp. requirement and they same threshing potential. 40" * 3.14 is the circumference of the 40" cyl. (125.60 inches) 30" * 3.14 is the circumference of a 30" cyl. (94.20) In another words a 30" cyl. operating at 1000 rpms has the same threshing potential as the 40" cyl operating at 750 rpms. The 40" cyl. operating at 750 rpms will take the same hp. as the 30" cyl. operating at 1,000 rpms. Both have the same horsepower requirements with the static separation area being a 33% larger for the 40" cyl over the 30" cyl. (40-30)_30
 

Rolf

Guest
G'Day Hunter Your right with the the HP power theory,But! You are going to need one heck of a lot of torque for that 40" rotor to swing it at 750 rpmIJ as compared to the 30" at 1000 rpm. Go jump on you kids ten speed bike try low gear then try top gear. You can usually get going on both gears but if you hit a hill (tough spot) your torque requirements goes up heaps. HP is the relationship of torque by speed, and for us who run low Rotor revs in pulse grains (190 RP in current setup) would have to be lower again with a 40" rotor to keep the tip speed the same as a 30" rotor, the torque goes up exponentially with the low rev's on a 40" rotor. Feel free to tell me Im wrong! Hope I have got the theory rightIJ Rolf
 

R_O_M

Guest
How come you always beat me to it RolfIJ It is always difficult to explain oneself and one's theories in simple language. Rooster has got a little confused by quoting centrifugal force which with the small increases in the cage diameter and the rotor running at the same peripheral or tip speed ie.reduced rotor revs, will have very little change. The second factor that may be misused and misunderstood is using the cross sectional area of the rotor to calculate HP requirements. This applies to fans and water pump impellers but does not apply to rotors where all the action takes place out at the periphery or tips of the rotor. The third and correct way, as hunter points out, is using the cage surface area and the tip speeds or adjusted rotor revs to calculate the HP requirements. Thinking of the solid type rotor barrels may help where the inside of the rotor barrel just goes along for the ride. There are obviously some more subtle intertactions amongst all the above factors that a simple explanation and calculation can provide the accurate answers too. As a separate thought, the extra weight or mass of the larger rotor will help in maintaining and smoothing rotor performance through the flywheel effect. A very practical example of using an increased diameter thresher. In the 1980's my brother and I built a large pasture seed harvesting machine which operated by sucking seed pods off the ground over a 4.25 metre [14 foot] width at about 5KPH [ 3mph.] It took some pretty imagative thinking to eventually get it to separate out the tonnes of dirt and trash and just leave the seed pods for threshing. All of this while on the go. The main suction fan took close to 200HP to drive. Took a 400HP Cat engine to drive the lot. The thresher was a totally enclosed wire mesh cylinder about 5 feet long and 2 1_2 feet diameter. Everything had to be ground up to go through the wire mesh. After some years of use, the thresher was eventually replaced by a 5 foot diameter and about 15 inch wide wire cage thresher with about the same threshing area. To the surprise of all, the large diameter thresher was considerably higher in capacity and only used about the same HP as the original thresher. Other work I have seen is that the large diameter thresher is more efficient than the small diameter threshers. Apologies for the scribes diarrhoea. Cheers.
 

hunter

Guest
If you are talking about at the turning point you are correct. However, an engine will not know the difference. Think of it as a 30" vs 40" tire. A 30" tire turning 1000 rpms will go the same distance as a 40" tire at 750 rpms the only difference, if the engine that powers both runs at 2000 rpms a transmission converts the 2000 engine rpms to 1000 and the 2000 rpms to 750 to handle the increase in ft.lbs. torque of 1400 ft.lbs. at 750 rpms on the cyl. vs 1050 ft.lbs at 1000 rpms on the cyl. using the same 200+-horsepower power source.
 

R_O_M

Guest
Isn't it amazing how a single letter in the middle of a sentence can completely reverse the sense of the sentence! "There are obviously some more subtle interactions amongst all the above factors THAN [ not "that"] a simple explanation and calculation can provide accurate answers too" A scribe I am not! Cheers.
 

sidekick

Guest
I'm confused.Does the larger_slower rotor take comparable power inputs as smaller_faster rotorIJ The goal is "surface feet per minute" as far as rotor speed goes isn't itIJI know that sometimes things don't "figure" the way one would think at first.Sooo...in plain english,would the BIG rotor workIJIJIJ
 

R_O_M

Guest
I'll give this a try! Yes! For the same through put of material a big rotor will take the same HP as a smaller rotor, maybe even a fraction less HP due to those other factors I mentioned in the previous post. But a big rotor and cage also has the extra area to have a much greater volume of material flowing through before it reaches the same material density as a smaller rotor, therefore it has a much greater capacity along with a proportional increase in HP which will be required. It also allows a wider margin for the operator to achieve that happy medium where the rotor is operating comfortably within it's limits and is not being too heavily loaded or too lightly loaded for good threshing and separation. The capacity downside of the BIG rotor is when you cannot get enough material in because of crop or seasonal conditions. Threshing and separation will become problems much easier than a smaller rotor. Try thinking the opposite way! A 12 inch diameter rotor would be a disaster even if it was long enough to give the same threshing and seperation areas as the large rotor. But too large or BIG rotors also have problems with separation. This is where "Roosters" reference to centrifugal force comes in. Centrifugal force is a big factor in separation in a rotary. The simple explanation; the amount of centrifugal force is closely related to the number of degrees per second that a rotor turns through. A BIG diameter rotor with a certain peripheral or tip speed will have low RPM compared to the RPM of a small rotor with the same tip speed. The small rotor will be turning through a large number of degrees per second compared to the large rotor. The small diameter rotor will have a proporionately higher centrifugal force and theoretically better separation. In combine terms it is not going to matter much. The diameters of rotors of most combines are very similar and design of the rotor and cage are far more influential in the threshing and separation efficiency even up to somewhat larger diameter rotors than we are currently using. The downside of bigger diameter rotors is packing them into a user friendly and bureaucrat friendly transport package. The engineers also have to fit bigger grain tanks, heavier drives and other assorted larger bits around a large cage and rotor. Another downside is the lower RPMs that the larger rotors will operate at to keep the same tip speeds. These means increased drive torque on all mechanical components, particularly where heavy drive, very low RPM crop conditions arise. Much heavier gear boxes and heavier drives are required. The costs go up exponentially as these components increase in size and specifications. Never under estimate the engineer's problems as they compromise and trade-off to try and get a half decent machine which is why when they have a good design, they are loath to change it. Most combine engineers usually over come their problems by making things somewhat complicated and ultimately difficult to maintain and service. I can think of a couple of makes that follow this pattern. The odd genius engineer makes his combine a reasonably simple machine while it still does every thing required of it. The old AC engineers were the best of the lot at this. Having designed and built a large harvesting machine that other for one conveyor, used only air flow for it's entire operation, I got an inkling on what combine enginers have to put up with to build a machine that suits every body. They, the for the most part, have my respect and even, at times, my sympathy. Apologies "Sidekick"! I probably have not answered your question to your satisfaction. Here ends the Epistle! Cheers.
 

sidekick

Guest
I think you did a fine job R.O.M..The "hyped" machines are capable of so much,it's hard for a guy like me to understand the "need" for even bigger machines.Here in Illinois,farmers are using semi's and grain carts to keep up with combines now.Then the elevators start to get over run because they can't handle the time_volume and can't get it shipped out fast enough either.Then there's the next bottle-neck at the processor or river terminal.How big is big enoughIJThe problem lies in the answer..."Just a little more".I think sometimes the old guys in the ivory towers are still the little boys on the playground..."Mine is bigger than yours"!!!Cheers back at ya!
 

big_orange

Guest
I agree with you Sidekick,here(EC Iowa) alot of grain goes direct to the processor,so bigger just means the combine sets longer.Run a 62,higher capaity clean grain elevator,and mor cleaning shoe could make a "bigger" monster out of it,rotor has never been the limiting factor.