Combines What is status of birotor combine bookIJ

FarmBuddy

Guest
I've looked over some of the discussion on here, and will throw in some comments. The Bi-Rotor remains a very interesting machine and the Dakota City, NE demonstation to JD in the fall of 1994 convinced JD that it had tremendous harvesting and performance characteristics. We then showed JD the VPS Versatile Power System, during January 1995, a few people also got that video sent to them. That really made JD sit up and take notice. JD hired back some retired engineers in January '95, completed their own internal market and engineering research and decided they better acquire the rights. Frankly, their approach to Agri-Technology included all the warm fuzzys, JD said they needed a rotary design (true),said they needed some tracked equipment (true),might even want to build a new green field factory (considered),liked our grain and MOG _ widespread combined, discharge systems, yadda yadda. I cautioned Mark and Ralph about the probable consequences of a sale to JD, but at the same time, it put the Bi-Rotor into their capable manufacturing hands and we knew their check would please the investors. That was the biggest risk we took. Frankly, twelve years later, it has been gut wrenching to me to see that JD bought up the BR patents so it would NOT be competing against their STS combines (which were already on their CAD "drawing boards" by 1995 with planned intros in 1998). In hindsight, JD was right again, the XBR2 BiRotor with higher Fc rotary concave, simple dual path grain handling, lateral slope compensator, 400 bu graintank and high volume, variable speed conveyor unloader would have been a viable competitor against the STS series and very likely a top performer in today's markets. Furthermore, the VPS configuration would have cut into their 4WD and CCS planter sales. Perhaps even some of their sprayer sales for spring burn down operations. This would have made farming more afforable for smaller operations also, while making better use of machinery investment dollars. One can see that JD acted in their best interest as they have continued to sell more tractors, combines, sprayers and all the related engines, cabs, and powertrains. Eventually the technology will get adopted since so many aspects made good sense. Finally one aspect, the overhead air intake system is on the 2006 STS combines, so more bi-rotor technology will probably come along with the 2008 models. I've been pretty busy working CHIS; Combine Header Interface Standardization proposal which will eventually make it easier and safer to install various headers and bio mass collection systems on various combines. These have both been big challenges but with a lot of potential improvement for farmers. Regarding other comments above: Company X was not Claas, it was New Holland _ in Belguim. Our test in AZ and CA were conducted against TX and a TR combine. The bi-rotor performed well, except for a failed worm gear case driving the concave _ cage. Caused by a cross shaft position error _ flaw from Superior Gearbox in Stockton, MO, Main problem was that NH would not let us isolate between rotor and our shoe losses, which had inadequate inlet area in June _ July 1994. NH seemed to manipulate some of the data and eventually convinced Cat ag managers that their TX series was better. CAt AG also had to concentrate more time and money on the Challenger RC project during the rest of 1994. We corrected our shoe air flow inlet problem back in Ark City before our fall 1994 demonstrations to JD up in Nebraska. Two weeks later, the XBR2 was shown for the first and last time publicly at the USCHI convention in lawrence, KS. JD flew in a few jet loads of upper management, looked things over, were impressed and bought it up within 6 months. Cat eventually became disenhearted with NH, and Claas offered an opportunity to sell green Challengers in EU in exchange for selling yellow lexions in the US. That led to the Cat _ Claas lexion relationship, and the bumper sticker, Nothing runs like a Deere with a Cat on its rear. So I expect the lexion will eventually force JD to adopt some more advanced XBR2 technology maintain their position in the harvesting market. The whole Dream Reaper story is not over yet, just much longer than anticipated and getting better each year. If we had it to do over again, it might have been better to go with our origninal plans to build BiRotors at a new factory site near Wellington, KS. But that was not the path chosen, so now we may never know. The next few years will be just as interesting. Ralf, thanks for posting the website photos. Perhaps we'll add more information and models and videos eventually. I might even include some photos at the ICCHP conference in louisville 11-14 Feb 2007, but manufacturers may not like us talking about the Bi-Rotor, or even CHIS before they are on the market. Alan VN
 

dakota

Guest
We could have much better and more reliable technology if the tech knowledge lacking bean counters would not get in the way all the time. What was CAT thinking when they had NH test the birotorIJ That NH would tell CAT what a great machine it is, just to see more competition come against themIJ Surely not. History shows more examples. Mercedes had a high speed tractor in Germany back in the 80s. But compared to their other vehicles sales numbers were low. Right when the high speed tractor market started booming in Europe Mercedes canceled the MBtrac, a machine that was once developed with huge cost, because it was a totally new concept of a tractor. CAT has never understood the ag-market and by the end of 2001 completely retreated. Now we can only dream what could have been. CAT could have manufactured the birotor. The lexion would have probably never made it to the US, because the birotor would have mostlikely outperformed it. When CNH merged, CAT could have bought their obsolete tractor plants and eventually could have become a full liner for ag equipment. John Deere again with some luck and their unparalleled marketing won the race. We are lacking pinoeers today, because the little guy doesn't have the money and for the big companies share holder value is more important than anything else.
 

FarmBuddy

Guest
I think Cat involved NH in the XBR2 evaluation because of their established relation on joint development of the Genesis _ Challenger Row Crop tractors. Also, NH in US had some record and experience using Cat engines in their combines. NH offered to bring their harvesting "test equipment" to their AZ and Brawley CA test sites. Although our BiRotor team had good hands-on and seat of the pants experience with combines, headers, and grain handling operations, we did not have the plot combines and test equipment offered by NH. Ultimately, I gleaned that NH may have been more interested in getting Cat to put their MTS track system under their TR, or perhaps even their TX or TF series combines. Prior to this time, from 1990 to 1992, Cat had been working with Claas OHG and Claas of America here in Columbus, IN putting the Cat 3306 engine and full tracks under the 116CS and 228CS combines. We mounted 15 and 30 foot Great Plains and Tye drills on front of 228CS full tracked combines during 1992-93 to test and validate the VPS drill pushing concept at Purdue Agronomy farm and down in Greenville, Mississippi during 1993 - 94. So Cat had been working and evaluating at leaast three combine groups by the end of 1994, ie NH (TR and TX) , Claas (CS and lEX protoypes) and Bi-Rotor Agri-Technology. Dakota, you're probably right, it is difficult for the small guy or group to get adequate support and funding for new concepts, as I have once again found out during the past tens of development of Tructor(R) - the tractor with "U" in the middle (sm). Also, I am certain that we could make life easier and safer for farmers by adopting a Combine Header Interface Standard (aka CHIS) but it is very time consuming and expensive trying to promote this with my limited funds. The seventh aspect of CHIS includes ClAD - Center line Auger Drive headers which would reduce header overall weight and cost by elimating the long back shafts and drives from the endsheets of headers. Wroking toward this common ag goal, we'll get some aspects (i.e. std tie down positions, driveshaft splines, and feederhouse picture frame opening) adopted over the next two decade. Although, it seems like Bi-Rotor deja vue all over again, I do hope CHIS will be studied and supported by young farmers so that they can reap the rewards in the future, similar to 3 point hitch convenience on tractors today. If we don't rally behind this now, we will be waiting another decade or two to get this done, just like the decade or two of delay on Bi-Rotor technology. Happy Harvest Holidays to you all.
 

FarmBuddy

Guest
The entire header, with feederhouse and rotor with rotary concave and discharge beater could be removed without additional tools while in the field, farm yard or shop. This gave good access to the rotary concave setting outside the combine. Also could then walk into the front cavity of the combine for access to the cleaning shoe area, which was also accessible from the rear. Futhermore, a spray tank with pump could be inserted into the cavity and the hydrualic (rotor) drive used to run the spray pump needed for a 60 to 120 ft front boom. The same cavity and power unit could be used to support a 30 ft front pusher drill being fed air delivery seed from the ____ left and right graintank saddle sumps. The very best part, would have been the common position of the seeder rows, spray rows, and harvest units in relation to ONE common position cab mounted GPS antenna. If only our Agri-Technology team could have continued on this dream path, your autoguidance and auto steer systems would have worked much better, for much less by now. Having planters behind the tractor and headers necessarily in front of combines just creates a whole lot of problems at corners, around waterways and along contours. Eventually, a few years and a few kilo$$ later, I think it will go this way. I already see many people loving their up front spray boom sprayers. Besides, who wants to spend their day looking backIJ
 

dakota

Guest
Alan, we can only thank people like you and Mark for giving so much time of your life to help others, while scrambling to make a living. Ralf
 

Illinois_Gleaner

Guest
Thanks for the great pictures, I wish someone that would use that technology would have bought it. That looked to simple and cost effective for big green,or the other 2. If I were on that team,it would seem like you still havent seen your dream come true. Not really know if it would have been a success in production. But if you made a fair amount of money,that is what life is all about.We are all out there living our dream trying to make a dollar. Thanks, again for the pics IG
 

STSMAN

Guest
I think that the STS concept will hang on until about 2007-2009 with upgrades to keep it alive vs rival CASE IH 8010. I really beleive that DEERE will want to introduce the All NEW Bi-Rotor combines with the FIRST All NEW CABS etc..after the STS's are fully retired,by 2009-2010,this seems about right.
 

STSMAN

Guest
I think that the STS concept will hang on until about 2009 with upgrades in 2007 to keep it alive vs rival CASE IH 8010. I really beleive that DEERE will want to introduce the All NEW Bi-Rotor combines with the FIRST All NEW CABS etc..after the STS's are fully retired,so by 2009-2010 we should see SOMETHING NEW,this seems about right.
 

STSMAN

Guest
I think that the STS concept will hang on until about 2009 with upgrades and maybe a model number change(70series)in 2007 to keep it alive vs rival CASE IH 8010. I really beleive that DEERE will want to introduce the All NEW Bi-Rotor combines with the FIRST All NEW CABS etc..after the STS's are fully retired,so by 2009-2010 we should see SOMETHING NEW,this seems about right.
 

STSMAN

Guest
I think that the STS concept will hang on until about 2009 with upgrades and maybe a model number change(70series)in 2007 to keep it alive vs rival CASE IH 8010. I really beleive that DEERE will want to introduce the All NEW Bi-Rotor combines with the FIRST All NEW CABS etc..after the STS's are fully retired,so by 2009-2010 we should see SOMETHING NEW from Deere,if not the BI-ROTOR combine,maybe some form of it or some SUPER STS..etc..this seems about right.
 
 
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