Combines Tell me this

[Deerebines]

I am going off of what Mark told me on the telephone one night. He had no reason to lie to me and I'm not one to believe what a corporation like deere is saying into the public microphone about situations like this. Besides, Deere has never worried much before in the past about patent infringements on planters and tracked tractors. What real reasoning makes you think that they would really be concerned about it now with something an individual made......nowhere close in comparison with manpower and financing to that of big corporations like Kinze and CaterpillarIJ I am pretty certain the only thing left in the proto stage on the bi-rotor was the attachments and extra duties that were in store for it to perform. It was an ambition of the creators to make it so you could fill the bin with seed, pull the rotor out and put in a liquid tank and mount your 3 point tool bar to the front and plant with it. That option was still in the workings.

 

[SilverTurnedGreen]

I'm going by what Cat's position was, as stated in the book Dream Weaver. As far as the "tracked tractor" saga, the last I read was that Deere came out of that suit unscathed; - Cat's allegations were deemed frivolous, unless they've appealed the case, the suit was dropped. By "Farmbuddy's" own admission in a previous post, the Bi-Rotor was indeed lacking some of the innovations and technologies when it came to the "little" things like cleaning systems, headers, monitoring systems, etc., but I agree with you when you comment on the simplicity and versatility of the Bi-Rotor. It's unfortunate that a company like Buhler couldn't have taken this product to market!

 

[SilverTurnedGreen]

Sorry! The book was called "Dream Reaper", not "Dream Weaver", which was an old Gary Wright tune!

 

[Deerebines]

I knew what you were referring to silver......close enough on the name.

 

[Russ]

Deere has bought and tanked more patents than any other farm equipment company. This keeps the competition at bay and prevents the farmer from enjoying new efficiencies and reliability Just look at their combines and you will notice that they are designed to keep their foundry in business today and their parts company in business for a long time. A rotary machine does not have to have that many driveline components to make it work. The same is true with the New Holland. lots of drive components. Just for reference, look at the thickness of parts books for a Deere, a New Holland and a Massey 8780. There isn't just a few pages of difference, there are inches of difference. They put more parts on a combine to sell more parts in the future, not to make a machine work more effeciently or reliably. In a declining market (in terms of numbers of units sold) Deere would have had to give-up too many dollars of manufacturing profits and parts profits to introduce the bi-rotor. They simply could not do it and make enough money to keep the harvester works in business and their high-dollar managers on the payroll. As far as the design not being ready for release to the market, well... that hasn't stopped Deere or most of the other companies in the past. Do your own patent research and see what conclusion you come up with.

 

[Deerebines]

Good point.....I can still remember all the first 8000 series being recalled for the computers to be changed out.

 

[Buckshot]

Think about it Deerebines, because your arguments do not hold water. If Deere's was too scared to market the bi-rotor because it would hurt resale, why did they come out with the STSIJ The answer is this: you make the best product you can and sell it for a profit. The used market will fluctuate up and down with supply and demand, but that happens anyway and is the curse of all combine builders. Resale is a huge problem for all makers, but it doesn't have much to do with what STYlE of combine you build. There are far fewer CTS combines out there and their value has dropped much fast than the old conventionals. If you do what you suggest, keep better products from the market, don't keep improving your product, others catch up and you don't sell ANYTHING. You DIE. The field is littered with outfits that didn't keep improving and when bankrupt. If the bi-rotor was that good, they would have built it. End of story. No question. As for what prototypes Deere did and didn't have, Deere has been testing rotaries for over thirty years. All kinds of prototypes, including your bi-rotor, never made it. Most likely it failed Deere's "all crops, all conditions" rule. You say it was out of the prototype stage and was "ready." Nope! Until a unit is produced on the assembly line, a testing combine is nothing but a hand-built prototype of which there are lots of examples. "Ready" seems to mean "as good as they can get it" in your mind. As for the STS, they did not have any tooling in place (meaning significant cost to recover) until the summer of 1999 when they shut down the '10 and II series production for several weeks. They hadn't even decided to produce it until mid 1997 when they got it to feed to their satisfaction by using the accelerator and whizzy three-ramp throat. The bi-rotor had been around since long before then and would have been built INSTEAD of the STS IF it had been a better design. It would have cost NO more money to scrap the STS in favor of the bi-rotor anywhere along this time line. They didn't because it wasn't a better machine. The only arguments you have are weak and too tainted by sentimentality. Worse, they don't make business sense. I suppose you think Deere faked the moon landing and that aliens are running the country too.

 

[Deerebines]

While you offer up some dates and facts I wasn't aware of Your not completely right. Ever hear of a car called the edsilIJ Yea, pushbutton transmission in the steering wheel. Far ahead of it's time and was a failure on the market because people were not "ready" for it. In my opinion that bi-rotor is no different. Also, if someone is going to take the time to tool up a factory and start mass producing the machines don't you think it's PAST the proto stageIJ That is where that bi-rotor was at. It was ready to go into production....out of proto. Mark told me the story where deere brought out there 9610 to the field of high moisture sorghum and competed against the bi-rotor. They slugged the deere several times not even half way down the suggested and marked distance in the field while the bi-rotor pulked out what looked like silage out the back end and never slugged. Bringing grain into the tank and never missing a bit. Don't even try to tell me that sts will do that. I ran one of those in less than 30 bushel wheat this summer and it was sickening how much they were asking for such a pile of junk. They can blame it was to dry as to why it didn't always feed either but there goes your theory of all crop and all conditions. While we are at it........if Deere's theory is all crop all conditions why did they build the cts for rice growersIJ It's not called sentimility......It's called second guessing Deere for the real truth....something they, and most corps, seldom tell. They bought that bi-rotor patents to save their hiney....any way you want to look at it.

 

[steve]

I've run both the red and green ones (for about 30 years now)....they both have their good and bad points, but what you are saying about the 9610 and the STS is pure bs. If you don't like Deere just say so, but don't make things up to make yourself feel good, or run someone else down. Some of us know better.

 

[Deerebines]

Steve.....I take offense you calling me a liar. The story of the 9610 was told to me by Mark and he had no reason to lie to me. The sts story is fact and it happened this summer. I don't hate deere but just because they come up with some new piece of green and yellow iron with wax all over it does not mean I'm going to drool and wish and rub every lantern I come across. If it doesn't cut the mustard I'm going to say so. If someone tells me a story that I feel is believeable, I'm going to pass it on. Deere has had more questionable deals in the back then any other equipment maker and you can't deny it. Just the idea that someone out there isn't mesmerized by that shiny green and yellow pee's you off. You don't know better. You only think you do.