Combines You have to check out this site

Is that something to be proud of or embarrassed aboutIJ I wouldn't want to show my face down the the street if I was collecting some of the money those guys in the top 10% are just to keep farming. Why prop up unviable farmersIJ.....or have they just become so "addicted" to the subsidies that you can't_won't let goIJ Talk about a welfare state! Can't wait till the WTO finally puts an end to that kind of trade distorting.

Bundy, by the name I take you're from AustraliaIJ You would be surprised at how many farmers in the US survive on subsidy payments (welfare) alone. The farm all year long to place a welfare check in their pocket. Many of the subsidy payments in the US are obligatory from the gov't - price supports, conservation programs, etc., but that shouldn't prevent those who receive them from trying to become more efficient and profitable. Many just don't care, they made enough to break even paying the minimu on farm payments and then settle back to reap the benefits of subsidy payments. subsidies use to be just that, subsidies. Today, I really can't tell you what value they play. All I know is that I am very profitable before any gov't payment is received and don't feel sorry none the least for those who need subsidies. Needing subsidies to survive is a leading indicator as to an operations financial position.

What you said is very true And those who one year wouldn't need them the next might desperatly need them Hard to pay the cost of everything we buy considering we are told what the price of corn and beans. You can't compare this business to other business Good post...landsurfer

I have no problem with "exceptional circumstance" assistance in a one in 25 or 1 in 50 year weather event, ie drought, flood damage etc. But when it becomes a means by which uneconomical, over supplied crops become profitable again, just because of the subsidy, how can that possibly be benefical for anyone in the long runIJ It's been a while since I was in the US or Canada, but I seriously doubt the is an education or hospital system in the world that would love just a fraction of what is paid out in subsidies. And for whatIJ I see no good reason except for the fact that some farmers are so blind to the fact that there is an oversupply in the market for the particular crop they grow and that they should cut costs like the rest of us farmers in the world had to or diversify into a more profitable rotataion instead of being proped up and exsasabating the oversupply issues. Believe it or not, you do not NEED to have a new tractor or combine every second year it remain profitable, as hard as that may be to believe for some posters...

I figured this was who was referring to before I even went to the site. EWG doesn't worry about getting the facts right and their reports are full of errors. They will even admit such but will not make an effort to correct them. I won't even bother to look at their reports anymore. last year I checked what they showed as government payments on our farm. Only way that we could have received the amount they showed we had received was to included loan payments that we had received for sealed grain. Thes were loan payments that were repaid like any other loan. True, there were some years that interest was forgiven due to posted county price being below loan rate at the time of repayment. Other years these loans were repaid with interest.Never the less, EWG continues to list thes loans as government payments just as if they were direct payments,countercyclical payments, lDPs, or disaster payments, Do I think the current system is goodIJ No, there needs to be changes made. Payment limits need to be enforced for one. Also, there needs to be something done about all the big corporations, not for profit groups, and even cities that are receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars, even into the millios at time, of payments. I know of one farm inthis area that received over $9 million dollars and another that received over $2 million in farm payments last year. These are the same farmers that are out there bidding astromnomical cash rents and buying land at more than double it's worth. these are the things that need to be corrected IMO. Don't punish the poor family farmer that is jusat trying to survive. Also, before jumping on the farmer for being subsidised by the government you need to take a look at a lot of other industries. Just my 2

let's not forget that farming is a competitive sport. Those farmers didn't make the rules, they just play by them. It's not their fault if the current programs encourage production, resulting in surpluses. You can't really expect them to personally attempt to buck the system by not taking the subsidies or not growing a crop, can youIJ And, if you are in agriculture, you are one of the beneficiaries. Do you think you would have the technology you currently enjoy if production was discouragedIJ Why would a company develop chemicals or hybrids or better equipment for agriculture if no one had an interest in increasing production, nor the money to buy such advancesIJ What about the countries that used to struggle to feed themselves, but can now actually export grain. Since when was it a bad thing to have plenty of food on a world-wide basisIJ Perhaps the US system that has produced so much is not the problem, but rather the problem is that other countries around the world dont have a similar programIJ If your WTO simply results in higher priced food, so that more of the worlds population goes hungry, it that really any betterIJ Finally, as I look at the farmers in my county at the top of the list, most of them happen to be the farmers who are regarded as doing an excellent job of farming. They would also be successful in any other system, or any other line of work, for that matter. They have also paid a lot of taxes over the years. I would guess they actually pay more taxes than the subsidies add up to, but that might be difficult to prove. I usually dont respond to posts like this, but criticizing people based on that data just rubs me the wrong way. And no, I dont farm.

Bundy, what crops do you growIJ

Good points And i like how he thinks we just have droughts every so often... Just how many farmers do you think could make it with no help with 3-6 sometimes 9 years of really bad crops 20 bushel beans and then 60 bushel corn And now if we all went out of business then there would be a huge demand for corn and beans wouldn't there...

Well Mr. Bundy that is how the game is played here in the states,the goverment set the rules to have a cheap food policy and most all the major producers take the payments and I walk down the street with my head in the air with out any problem because you know what, every dollar that the farmers in the states get. It goes right back into the economy. Take the dollars away from the farmers and then watch the welfare go out like for example building, machinery and I could go on and on. But that was a dumb statement you made. Have a good day in what ever country your in. And just remember the good old U.S.A. would probably come to your rescue if your country got in to a war. It sure seems like we are always helping some country out. But thats another story.

Well i do, in Australia. The only benefits we get for farming from our government is excise relief on Diesel used for farming purposes. ie once we pay the full price at the bouser, we can claim back some of the tax component of the fuel price from the federal government. We also have the ability that when we suffer adverse weather conditions or Exceptional Circumstances as the Govt call it ie. a 1 in 25 or 1 in 50 year(i think) event and can prove it with historical records, we have the ability to access low interest loans from the government to keep stock alive or try again if the season turns around before your heart and soul is broken by this dry land. So I have felt the effect subsidised grain pumped out of the US and the EU has had on world markets, I have seen sorghum prices at $90 a tonne fob, but I have also seen wheat in a bad drought year crack over $350 tonne.(Just a pity no-one had any to sell that year) That is the REAl world we in non-subsidised countries have had to deal with. This year our wheat was only worth $160t fob at harvest (oct),minus $27 frieght from depot to port, $12t from farm to depot and harvesting cost of $13 and acre plus fuel and you don't have a lot left to cover seed, fallow and incrop spraying, planting, ect. Could you work these figures ( remember this is Australia Dollars so .75c US) I grow crops similar to most of you, winter cereals, sorghum, chickpea, mungbean, etc. The difference is the we all have to do some very hard sums everytime we turn a wheel as to weather the crop we are planting is going to be profitable and what market are we aiming for, not just because it is what Dad or the neighbour has grown before so why change. We depend as much, if not more so then you on the USDA crop production figures. If grain will be no good then aim for feed or forage markets to supply feedlots etc. As for the : "What about the countries that used to struggle to feed themselves, but can now actually export grain. Since when was it a bad thing to have plenty of food on a world-wide basisIJ" When the US or the EU dump huge amounts of strongly discounted wheat into the world market, particularly as "aid" grain at highly discounted prices, it doesn't matter how much your technology has helped them to export grain as all the dumped grain is doing is taking income and markets away from struggling farmers domesticly as there is an oversupply of grain, so no market for their poorer quality grain, no jobs and the poverty cycle increases. Would it not be better to develop infostructure for these farmers instead of dumping cheap grain on their doorstep and flooding world marketsIJIJ As for your points about increasing production, I really cannot see any relevance as to wether or not you are subsidised. Believe it or not Ag tech is developed in countries that don't have your support. And of course we all aim for higher yields at lower costs, we have too, to survive. That said how many farmers subsistance farmers in central Africa or South America can afford a 450STX, a patriot spray rig and an 8010 to harvest there crops every other yearIJ And even if they could, no one would by their full price grain as there is all this subsidised grain on the world market for well under cost of production. I wouldn't expect for a moment for anyone to give up what you have. Its perfectly understandable for people to get extremely defensive when they are on such a "good thing". All subsidies do is distort domestic and world trade of commodities. It's great if your on the right side of it but can really hurt those who are not. Most off us here have learned to put up with it and deal with it, but the ones who are really hurt by them are those who can least afford it in third world countries. Sooner or later trade will free up and those that can't survive without assistance will not find life so confortable...